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Post by mocatmancb on Jan 4, 2010 12:19:58 GMT -5
i was going to set some traps by the lake(stockton lake) this week to remove some otters that have been trashing a friend's boat dock. i checked the legality first and found that all lands managed by the mdc are closed to trapping, except by special use permit only and the permit must be applied for at least 30 days before the trapping begins. this is public land, open to be used freely by hunters and fisherman, but closed to the trapper. this needs to change. this is the worst discrimination against the trapper that i have seen. we have a hard enough time defending our sport without the mdc taking the side of the antis and closing all their lands to trapping. there are trappers in my area that have always trapped the conservation areas without special permit and they still argue with me that they do not need a special permit to trap the land, even after i showed them the regulation in black and white. i guess the warden will explain it to them sooner or later. they say"it is public land, anyone can trap it", and that is how it should be, but that is not how it is. i am going ahead and applying for the permit for next year, and until then an over abundance of furbearers will go unchecked in this area. i have sent a question to the ombudsman asking why this regulation is in place. i will let you know what kind of answer i get. i am assuming it is to keep trappers out of the way of hunters and fisherman who generate more revenue for the mdc. does anyone else have any information, thoughts, or insight into this subject?
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Post by kato on Jan 4, 2010 12:47:03 GMT -5
i have special use permits on 4 areas around here. i have had them the past couple years. I have Never had to put in for it 30 days in advance. is the lake owned by MDC? up here there are lakes owned by the city, but the land is ran by the DNR. i can legally set water sets but no land sets. you may check into that. you could use 330's and drwners, just make sure every thing is under water. no part of the set can be on land, not even a pole for a drowner set up.
i would find out who the area manager is and talk to them. let them know some otter are causing damage. it only takes about an hour to write up the permit.
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Post by bverboy on Jan 4, 2010 14:51:28 GMT -5
i dont know about the 30 day thing, but i cant get into an area until after duck season which is the end of december. now look at the weather, everything froze up and the manager wonders why muskrats are draining the duck lakes like crazy. i told him trappers need to be in there during decent weather to help the problem. he knows it too. it is discrimination against the trapper. it is all about revenue.
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Post by bigbob on Jan 4, 2010 16:23:46 GMT -5
Talk to the area manager about the special use permits.
Might be able to use the ADC clause to take them.
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Post by kato on Jan 4, 2010 16:52:00 GMT -5
ADC you wont be able to keep. talk to the area manager, it is thier decision if and when you can trap and by what means you can take fur bearers, legholds on land or water sets only.
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Post by hackworth on Jan 4, 2010 21:11:01 GMT -5
Are you talkin about a Conservation Area around Stockton Lake or the lake itself? Their definition of managed would be a conservation area not the lake. If your thinking that because they set limits for fish and such on the lake then you wouldn't even be able to trap your own land as they are the department that sets the limits on what you kill and so on. The lake is regulated by the MDC but not managed. That would be the Corp of Engineers. Trap the hellout of it.
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Post by mocatmancb on Jan 5, 2010 3:01:53 GMT -5
the land i wish to trap lies in the stockton lake management lands on the big sac arm of the lake in dade county. it is owned by the corps of engineers and leased and managed by the mdc. the area manager's name is kyle hedges. i didnt have time to call him before work today, but i will call him in the morning. i hope he is more down to earth than the ombudsman i communicated with via email. he should be a politician, it is impossible to get a straight answer from him. as far as the water, yes i can trap in the water without permit, but i have no water trapping equipment or skills. as the ombudsman said, i can trap on the dock, since it is privately owned, i had to explain to him that it is highly unlikely that i could get an otter to step in a steel trap lying on top of a dock. i also wish to trap other furbearers on these lands, not just the otters and not just at the location where the otters are causing damage. i will just have to call this fella and see if he will let me trap the lands that our permit fees pay for. i'll let ya know how it goes.
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Post by mocatmancb on Jan 5, 2010 3:07:55 GMT -5
here is the spin doctor answer i got from the ombudsman in response to my question: why are trappers required to apply for a special use permit to use mdc lands?
On conservation areas, the special use permit (available at no charge)
is required because our area managers need to have knowledge of where
traps are being set and what kind of traps are being used. With this
knowledge, they can minimize any threats to pets or hunting dogs on
the area and they can limit the number of trappers using the same area
at the same time. Because trapping involves leaving equipment
unattended on the area, it is important that managers have approval
authority over trapping. The 30-day requirement on the special use
permit may be waived by the area manager.
Tim E. Smith
MDC Ombudsman
573/522-4115 ext. 3848
so, yes the manager can issue the permit right away, although the regs state the permit MUST be applied for 30 days before the trapping is to begin. a gov't agency contradicting its self? surely not. ha!
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Post by mocatmancb on Jan 5, 2010 3:20:35 GMT -5
from his "answer" it is obvious that the issue is politics and revenue. the mdc catering to bird hunters because they sell more small game permits than trapping permits. i dont understand how the manager knowing that i am trapping will prevent a dog from getting in a trap. the dog and hunter still wont know the trap is there, unless he is going to put up a sign that says "THERE IS A TRAP HERE" with an arrow pointing at my set. i dont think he is going to build a dog proof fence around it. i just hope he wont want to restrict me to dp traps. as far as i know the places i wish to trap are never hunted by anyone with beagles or bird dogs, and they probably wont care if i catch a coonhound. coon hunters also seem to be black sheep of the outdoorsman family in the eyes of the mdc. i am a houndsman, and i have had dogs shot, caught in traps, and stolen. these are just risks you take any time you cast a dog into the field. anyway, the authority lies in the area manager and it will boil down to how reasonable of a man he is whether or not i am allowed to trap these lands. wish me luck.
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Post by mocatmancb on Jan 5, 2010 9:56:35 GMT -5
called the number given to me by the ombudsman to contact kyle hedges, area manager. the guy that answered the phone took a message, said mr hedges would be busy all day and would call me at his convenience.
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Post by darby on Jan 5, 2010 10:46:47 GMT -5
Mocat...I'm impressed that you had a reply from the Omsbudman so quickly. I've tried to get info on wildlife questions for three years from him, even once to our area Private Land specialist, to no avail.
You may just take what they've given you as to trap the 'boat dock', as there are ways to attach BGs to the dock to smack the otter, believe you could even do with a FH or snares under water with open box which otter may go through to rest and eat their catch.
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Post by hackworth on Jan 5, 2010 19:11:06 GMT -5
Heck, if it's gotta be on the dock, put a 330 in front of a bucket of fish and call it good. LMAO!
Just a thought, it might not hurt to have your dock owner contact the area manager as well and tell him he's gonna send the bill for the dock damage to the protectors and owners of the otter. LMMFAO!
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Post by bigbob on Jan 5, 2010 20:33:27 GMT -5
ADC you wont be able to keep. talk to the area manager, it is thier decision if and when you can trap and by what means you can take fur bearers, legholds on land or water sets only. \ Only if out of season. |
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Post by Guest on Jan 5, 2010 21:43:57 GMT -5
I was told bob that even if in season and your adc trapping the animals its still dispose of fur! They dont want you getting paid twice. It would be so wrong! LOL!!!
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Post by hackworth on Jan 6, 2010 0:28:07 GMT -5
I would dispose of it in a buddies freezer, then stand by his trashcan when he cleans all the garbage out of his freezer. Of course, being a good buddy, he would let you know when the trash runs. LMAO
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Post by mocatmancb on Jan 6, 2010 2:13:07 GMT -5
i believe with adc catches they must be handled according to the wishes of the agent issuing the adc permit. the area manager that i tried to contact returned my call, but i missed it cause i was at work. he left me a message stating that he would be glad to issue me a special use permit for trapping. gave me his cell number, said to call him to give him my address and he would get it in the mail to me. sounded like a really nice guy, i will call him in the morning. still irks me that i had to go through all the red tape just to set a few traps, but it seems to be easy enough to get the permit as long as the manager of the area you wish to trap is easy to get along with.
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Post by kato on Jan 6, 2010 2:17:25 GMT -5
Bigbob ADC is ADC doesnt matter if its during season. trapping is trapping. you can do ADC all year long including during trapping season but the same rules and regs apply. legally you cannot keep critters caught from adc even during trapping season.
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Post by mocatmancb on Jan 6, 2010 2:18:23 GMT -5
Mocat...I'm impressed that you had a reply from the Omsbudman so quickly. I've tried to get info on wildlife questions for three years from him, even once to our area Private Land specialist, to no avail. You may just take what they've given you as to trap the 'boat dock', as there are ways to attach BGs to the dock to smack the otter, believe you could even do with a FH or snares under water with open box which otter may go through to rest and eat their catch. darby, i believe this ombudsman was recently appointed to that position. may not be the same guy that you wrote before. he answered all my emails very promptly. didn't really give me the answers i was looking for, but he did reply. give him a try. |
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Post by hackworth on Jan 6, 2010 9:18:46 GMT -5
He's the yes man they appointed because the other guy stepped down. The landowner deer hunting issues and other things he had to give Department responses to got to him I believe.
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Post by mocatmancb on Jan 6, 2010 12:42:16 GMT -5
spoke to area manager kyle hedges this morning, and special use permits for two conservation areas are on their way to me in the mail. he is easy to get along with and was happy to issue the permits. i still disagree with the permit requirement. i can see where the manager might need to restricct the number of trappers on a small area, such as the 320 acre area i applied for, but the other area is over 16,000 acres. although i would like to see changes in this rule, i am very satisfied that i will be allowed to trap these areas. permits should be here in the mail in a few days and then i will be putting out sets, weather permitting, and the critters better watch out. the only restriction he gave me was a 6&1/2 inch jawspread, which is fine , that is exactly what a #4 duke measures.
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